americanstaffordshireterrier.MyForum.ro

Loko · Baby Data inscrierii: 07/Sep/2009 Mesaje: 768

What exactly is "gameness"?
Gameness in APBT's is a canine virtue that is most akin to the human virtue of unflagging courage. It is a determination to master any situation and never back down out of fear. It was developed in pit bulls by many generations of selective breeding. It is what allows a pit bull to keep fighting non-stop for two or more hours, in spite of broken bones, torn muscles, blood loss, dehydration, and exhaustion. But it is also valued by APBT owners who would never think of fighting their dogs. It is manifested in the can-do attitude of pit bulls toward any type of challenge.
Generally speaking, a game dog is an emotionally stable, easy-going dog, especially good with kids. Gameness should not be confused with aggressiveness. There are plenty of aggressive dogs that are not game. Aggressiveness will propell a dog into a fight but will only sustain him for the first few minutes. Gameness, on the other hand, will not necessarily make a dog fight-happy; but if the dog has no other choice but to fight, a game dog will fight until it wins or dies trying, and will keep going as long as necessary. Gameness is an inner quality of pit bulls. There is no way you can tell by looking at a pit bull whether it is deeply game or not. The only test--and for many years the main criterion for selecting a dog for breeding purposes--is actually fighting the dog to see how it stands up to other dogs that have likewise already proven their gameness in the pit. Dogs that are emotionally unstable, or that fear-bite human beings are generally not game. If you want a nice pit, you're generally better off getting one that has been game-bred. These dogs represent the truest exemplars of all the best qualities in the breed.
Until about 15 years ago, there were only a small handful of dedicated breeders who maintained this breed, and I would guess that nearly all of these breeders bred for gameness and game-tested their dogs in order to choose the ones to be bred. During all that time, you never heard of pit bulls mauling 5-year old kids. It was only when the breed became immensely popular in the 1980s--i.e., when lots of ignoramuses suddenly became backyard breeders--that you began to read stories (at least some of them must have been true) about man-eating pit bulls. These monster dogs were not "fighting dogs". The scrupulous criteria that old-time breeders had used for selecting or culling dogs in breeding programs were thrown out the window--along with plain common sense. The backyard breeders didn't know the difference between gameness and aggressiveness. Many of them didn't grasp the fact that a champion fighting dog is born, not made; so they tried to make their dogs into "fighting dogs."
In the hands of ignorant breeders, the gentle, affectionate qualities that were so crucial to the old-time breeders also went out the window. You began to see idiotic ads in the classified section announcing "Pitbull pups for sale. Big-boned. Big heads. Excellent attack dogs. No papers. $250" From the old-time breeders' point of view, the gentle qualities were an absolutely indispensable safety precaution to be bred into a fighting dog, since no dog could be fought if it couldn't be safely handled by its owner during a pit contest. These breeders bred for a type that was extremely easy-going and docile around people and would NEVER think of biting a friendly hand, even amid the fury of a fight. A well-bred pit bull is so reliable in this respect that even if he is badly hurt in an automobile accident and is in extreme pain, he won't snap at his owner who tries to pick him up--unlike most dogs in that situation. Well-bred pit bulls are like labs in that they will never try to dominate their owners through threats, such as growling or baring teeth or snapping. Sure, they will try to dominate you--by outsmarting you, by doing something sneaky to get their way when they know you're not looking. But it is a very rare pit bull that will growl when you pick up his food dish or reach into his mouth to take a bone away. The analogy to labs is fitting because both of these breeds were selectively bred for tasks that demanded an extreme level of generosity toward people. Can you imagine a lab that snarled when you tried to take the duck from his mouth? Such a dog would have been culled from a serious performance-based breeding program. Likewise, any APBT that showed the least sign of aggression toward people was culled as unsuitable for breeding. Whether true or not, it was an article of faith among old-time breeders that a human-aggressive dog simply could not be dead game. In any case, such a dog would have been unsuitable for fighting purposes: no one would volunteer to be its handler or to referee the match. As a result of this careful breeding history, the APBT is an extremely easy-going, human-loving dog.
The American Canine Temperament Testing Association is an organization that titles dogs for passing its temperament test. The test consists of putting the dog into a series of unexpected situations, some involving strangers. The dog fails the test if it shows any signs of unprovoked aggression or panic around people. Of all dogs that take the test, 77% on average pass. But among pit bulls who take the test, 95% on average pass--one of the highest passing rates of all breeds.
???????
If gameness manifests itself as climbing trees,
(etc etc) then aren't all these legitimate tests for gameness?
Pit bulls will generally excel in activities that require sustained determination and that test their bodies' ability to endure pain and exhaustion to an extreme. But the fact is that there are very few activities that will test a dog's gameness to its limits, or that will provide a basis for comparing one dog's degree of gameness to another's. For example, wild boar hunting, in spite of the high level of risk to the dog involved, doesn't really test the limits of a dog's gameness. The tangle between boar and dog is fast, furious, and generally quite short (compared with a pit contest). Athletic ability, agility, explosive power, strength of bite, and smarts are of a higher priority here than gameness, which never really has a chance to come into play in so brief an encounter. The dog will either take the boar down or be killed before the depth of his gameness can make much of a difference. Several larger breeds of dogs--American Bulldogs and Argentine Dogos--seem to be at least equally adept at boar hunting as pit bulls. But this doesn't make them as game as pit bulls.
Just because a game disposition will aid a dog in excelling at many different activities--such as agility competition, flyball races, tree-climbing, etc.--doesn't mean that these activities are sufficient tests for gameness. Gameness is multi-dimensional; the above activities do not stress all of these dimensions simultaneously to their extreme limits . Gameness is, in positive terms, a happy eagerness to pursue a challenge; but it is also, in negative terms, the stubborn refusal to heed the cries of the nervous system to stop struggling and and to flee the situation that is causing so much pain. None of the activities above can fully assess this second dimension. Unfortunately,the only activity that really tests the full extent of a dog's gameness is pit contests. It's a pity that this is the case. Personally, I don't much like the idea of dog fighting, especially when money is involved and takes precedence over the well-being of the dogs. If I knew of another method--say, a DNA test--which could determine gameness, I'd be happily promoting that method right now. But genetic research has a long way to go before it could provide such a test. And with slightly more imporant concerns, such as preventing cancer, I don't expect many research dollars to flow into DNA game -testing. As a result, I'm left in the rather hypocritical position of celebrating a canine virtue that is only made possible by a human vice. So be it. I still prefer game dogs.
Understandably, breeders only want to choose the very best exemplars of the breed in their breeding programs. If you breed APBTs without regard for their degree of gameness, their gameness will gradually be lost with each succeeding generation. This is essentially what has occurred with Am Staffs and Staffy Bulls, which for many generations have been selectively bred for appearance rather than for the invisible inner quality of gameness. (Furthermore, I should add, less than scrupulous selection of all these breeds also risks the loss of the breed's excellent dispostion toward people.) In order to maintain a high degree of the desired qualities, a breeder must carefully select only those dogs that have them in the highest degree. Gameness was an extremely difficult trait to develop; it took more than a century of tiny, incremental improvements through selective breeding to realizează today's APBT. Though achieved only with great difficulty, gameness is easily lost, sometimes even in the hands of good breeders. If you mate two grand champions, you will be lucky if just one or two of the pups is of the same quality as the parents. Traditonally, the job of breeders was to identify these offspring and use only them to continue the breeding program. Sometimes it's the case that two great dogs will not cauzează any offspring who are their equals.

Am vrut sa deschid topicul asta , desi poate ca exista pe undeva aceleasi informatii, pentru a incerca sa punctez ce din pacate nu se intelege.
Numele de Pitbull este ceva generic si inglobeaza cateva alte tipuri de caini care au insa numitorul comun al aspectului fizic. Totul se opreste insa la gameness.

De aceea (ma stiti ca eu sunt ala cu "porcii") este corect din punctul meu de vedere sa fie utilizat termenul de pit si pt rasele tip bully . Au acelasi drept atat timp cat suntem toti de acord ca gamenessul defineste real pitbull. Asa ca daca suntem impotriva "luptelor" , nu putem folosi Pitbull in cazul niciunui caine. Atat timp cat insa cineva se adreseaza utilizând caracterizarea unui caine de 20-25 de kg cu pit dar neavand nici macar un gametest , trebuie sa acceptam si situatia in cazul unui caine de 60 de kg.

B_XXV · Junior Data inscrierii: 14/Feb/2009 Mesaje: 110

LOKO-De aceea (ma stiti ca eu sunt ala cu "porcii") este corect din punctul meu de vedere sa fie exploatat termenul de pit si pt rasele tip bully . Au acelasi drept atat timp cat suntem toti de acord ca gamenessul defineste real pitbull. Asa ca daca suntem impotriva "luptelor" , nu putem folosi Pitbull in cazul niciunui caine. Atat timp cat insa cineva se adreseaza folosind caracterizarea unui caine de 20-25 de kg cu pit dar neavand nici macar un gametest , trebuie sa acceptam si situatia in cazul unui caine de 60 de kg.[/quote]

Bre cetatene nu-mi jigni cainele ! Al matale e amstaff, blue amstaff, spartan, american bully...Cum vrei matale sa-i zici, da' nu-i spune pitbull, fiindca se va crea confuzie si e pacat sa amestecam merele cu perele. Multumesc anticipat!
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Aceste cuvinte ne "doare"...

misha · Junior Data inscrierii: 25/Iul/2008 Mesaje: 145

ff mare drepte......bv :beer2:

cronos · Trimis: 09/01/2010 00:48 Titlul subiectului:

Loko, bun venit pe acest forum ...nu sunt insa de acord cu punctul tau de vedere ...in primul rand de ce vrei tu neaparat sa-ti numesti cainii tai pitbull sau bully sau blue pitbull in conditiile in care tu ai pedigree de amstaff la ei?De ce nu-i prezinti ca doi amstaffi si atat?
Ma refer aici si la femela ta , nu doar la jim.
''Numele de Pitbull este ceva generic si inglobeaza cateva alte tipuri de caini care au insa numitorul comun al aspectului fizic''- afirmatia iti apartine.Nu vad cum mai poate exista un numitor comun al aspectului fizic intre un caine de 20 de kile si unu de 60?
Mi se pare ca te contrazici singur, un caine de 20 sau 25 de kile nu va avea niciodata aceleasi caracteristici cu unul de 50, daramite cu unul de 60...

Loko · Baby Data inscrierii: 07/Sep/2009 Mesaje: 768

cronos · Trimis: 09/01/2010 15:21 Titlul subiectului:

Nu stiu cat este de corect pentru ca ideile reflecta persoana in sine , nu poti face abstractie de acest lucru...cainii mei nu sunt gametested,sunt niste caini si atat nu le atribui niste calitati care nu exista doar pentru ca sunt ai mei.Nu cred ca diferentierea se poate face atat de usor, cei care au gameness sunt pit iar restul nu , e mult prea relativa toata treaba asta.Chiar si in cazul pitbulilor game, exista diferente mari, unii au mai mult gameness, altii mai putin, nu exista o valoare universala a gameness-ului care sa stabileasca daca al meu caine e pit.
Te mai intreb insa un singur lucru:daca ai 2 amstaffi cu pedigree, pe care tu i-ai prezentat ca fiind amstaff, de ce nu te rezumi la ceea ce sunt, de ce toata agitatia asta cu privire la denumiri ?
Pt mine e f simplu:ai doi amstaffi cu ped si atat,intram in alta sfera daca ne apucam sa vorbim despre gameness...

brunelu · Senior Data inscrierii: 20/Iul/2008 Mesaje: 2006

Loko · Baby Data inscrierii: 07/Sep/2009 Mesaje: 768

Loko · Baby Data inscrierii: 07/Sep/2009 Mesaje: 768

Daca s-ar intelege asta eu zic ca altfel ar sta lucrurile. macar nu ar mai fi meciuiti caini aiurea. Am tot vazut oameni care vbesc din experienta netului,a filmelor a povestilor.

Definitia gamenessului nu este cea a driveului. Doar la sfarsit poti afla daca cainele tau are gameness sau nu. In rest se numeste DRIVE.

cronos · Trimis: 09/01/2010 17:09 Titlul subiectului:

Am vrut doar sa zic ca unii sunt mai apropiati de caracterul unui pit gametested in varianta originala decat altii, iar la categoria ''altii'' intra american bully de 60 de kile de care zici tu..

Loko · Baby Data inscrierii: 07/Sep/2009 Mesaje: 768

cronos · Trimis: 09/01/2010 17:12 Titlul subiectului:

Adica sunt caini care au mai mult drive si caini care au mai putin , fara nici o legatura cu meciurile, asa au fost dotati de mama natura...

Loko · Baby Data inscrierii: 07/Sep/2009 Mesaje: 768

Nu vbim de kg aici. Sunt caini Colby de 50 de kg si sunt si caini mopderni mari. Eu doar vrea sa spun ca pit nu inseamna ceea ce spun contestatarii bully. Nu forma imi spune ca e pit ci ceea ce face. Este una dintre putinele rase de caini care nu are standard . Adica poate sa fie cocosat,stramb etc. Daca ramanea in picioare era pit....Fara sa testezi cum poti spune "al meu e un pit "? Seamana al tau cu chinaman de exemplu ?
Chinaman nu semana cu multi alti caini mai mici (el avea 47) . Care nu era pit dintre ei ?

Sau ma rog ce intelegi tu prin un pitbull. Ca asa imi va fi mai usor.

Loko · Baby Data inscrierii: 07/Sep/2009 Mesaje: 768

cronos · Trimis: 09/01/2010 17:16 Titlul subiectului:

Pitbulii de 50 de kile cum zici tu erau exceptii, marea majoritate erau undeva la jumatate, prezentand o exceptie si anume un pit game de 50 de kile nu poti sa incadrezi toti cainii de 50 de kile in categoria pitbullilor game...

cronos · Trimis: 09/01/2010 17:18 Titlul subiectului:

Discutia asta referitoare la gameness nu duce nicaieri, repet treaba asta e prea relativa pentru a putea fi definita asa in doua randuri...

Loko · Baby Data inscrierii: 07/Sep/2009 Mesaje: 768

cronos · Trimis: 09/01/2010 19:59 Titlul subiectului:

Loko · Baby Data inscrierii: 07/Sep/2009 Mesaje: 768

kng · Oldie Data inscrierii: 15/Feb/2008 Mesaje: 1539

Cel mai greu caine din cate stiu eu a lui Colby era Pinscher cu 75 lbs = 34 kg. ped : http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=5650

Lumea confunda poate cand vine vorba de unitatile de masura . Am vazut si APBT game de 100 lbs , dar erau destul de deosebit de rari , si nici numele nu il mai tin minte . Daca ii gasesc am sa ii postez . Chestia este ca nu dadeau si urmasilor aceste caracteristici , adica nu erau caini la fel de mari si de grei . Greutatea e influentata foarte tare de oase si muschi , si mai apoi de grasime .

Multi dintre AmBully sunt grasi , cel putin eu asa ii vad , nu spun ca nu sunt si caini care arata bine , sunt lucrati , se vad muschii , si arata ok , dar sunt mai multi cei care sunt cracanati , pliuri de piele si parca umflati nu lucrati .

Acuma inca o chestie referindu-ne la pitbulli . Termenul de "pit"bull denota anumiti caini care erau folositi la asa numitul sport de bull baiting . De acolo , s-au transformat in rasele pe care le cunoastem astazi : AMERICAN PITBULL TERRIER (APBT) , AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER , STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER , BULL TERRIER , care in esenta sunt primele rase selectate pentru si pe diferite criterii . Deci nu e corect sa zici am pitbull , e corect sa spui am un APBT , sau AMSTAFF , sau StaffyBull sau Bull Terrier . American Bully e o rasa noua , care ridica foarte numeroase controverse . Ca in indiferent ce rasa sunt caini care arata mai bine , are fura ochiul , are fani sau nu , depinde de fiecare cum priveste lucrurile . Ca si rasa stiu ca are mai multe varietati , si astea ar putea fi expuse cu poze pentru exemplificare in acest topic , ca sa fie mai bine intelesi .
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Anything any breed can do , the APBT can do it better :-)

Loko · Baby Data inscrierii: 07/Sep/2009 Mesaje: 768

Eu nu stiu ce e este asa greu.... Gameness este ce defineste un pitbull. Gamenessul este aflat in urma testarii unui caine. Cate kg are sau nu are e mai putin imp. Asa e cu unitatea de masura. Daca o iei pe linia colby vei gasi si cainii de 100 de lbs. Insa pt anul 1908 76 de lbs la game era mult....

Loko · Baby Data inscrierii: 07/Sep/2009 Mesaje: 768

Cronos,am vazut ca ai inceput un topic "pitbull o dispoziție de spirit" sau asa ceva. Ce inseamna starea asta de spirit ?